Old School vs New School

[jogjeff]

I have seen many conversations, many remarks about how much better new school players and over old school players. Usually I see the conversation or remark by Sinister, but I know that there are many out there that feel one way or another on the matter. And usually I stay clear of those types of things cause in the end its just a matter of opinion.

But being that I have time to write tonight and I feel like expressing my opinions tonight, I shall do so on this topic.

Now myself, I guess many of you would consider me old school, being that perhaps I made my name during that time.

I believe old school players consist of those such as myself, frantic, chicali, super duper, isac, trelum, deity, clean, leonardo, crazyfoo, Wooooooo etc

I believe new school players consist more along the lines of sinister, neji, kratos, lak , devil, viking, fearless etc

I beleive the concept of new vs old basically comes down to a time when JOG/ SDJ/ SOR/ AFH etc played matches. . . and the time after in which a new style in which consisted ramping, and moving around the map faster came about. I also beleive there is a divide between the time in which pulling was allowed and okayed and when it basically wasn't ok to use. I believe the advent of no pullers allowed the newer style to come about. To be honest , many of the players that do alot of the things they do now, wouldn't have been able to do them, if they were in a room with several competant pullers. Todays pullers are not very skilled and when you can only pull once, it really does limit what they can do. Also I think a small dividing line would be when perfest blocking truelly came about. When it came forth many left the game. Some learned to use it to their advantage.   

I feel that old school, you saw alot more variety of play and characters used. Now you tend to see alot of lukes, alot anakins and alot of vaders. Usually the players that play as vaders and are good at it, tend to be considered the best.

Now the question is asked, what is better, new or old school. The answer however depends on what one is asking. If the question is asked as if are the skill sets of today better than yesturday? Then the answer would be of course they are. The community of skills has only gotten better in time. . . its like building a brick house. You build it one brick at a time. Therefore you can't have the top of the house until you have the foundation. Players skills that are show cased today are built from those of the past. I could name alots of players in which players today remind me of from yesturday. I do feel many of these skills have been perfected throughout the years. However like the days past. . . I feel these newer skills that many now have learned and are implementing are starting to become old themselves. Eventually, if given time I know the community would find even newer ways to move and attack their opponants. Its just takes time.

Now if the question is asked, which players are better. . . than thats an entirely different question. If you were to place those from yesturday and let them learn everything that those of today have learned, and give them desire to prove it, then you truelly have a fight on your hands. One has to remember the best of yesturday were the best for a reason. Most have moved on. I personally am one of the longest remaining players. But most stopped truelly playing years ago. Players like sinister back in the day were getting beat by those players then. Now it doesn't mean he hasn't gotten better and wouldn't beat them now. . . but you thats up to debate.

I will say this, players in the past accepted to some degree, pulling, so one would have to say the newer generation would have to learn and adapt to that as well. Also one would have to take into anccount that if pulling was allowed all this time, pullers today would be ridicuous to kiill as well. . . There are some of today that know how to play against a puller. Sinister being one of them. Of course he cut his teeth during the hey day of the old school. So he knows its a bit more than some, like devil wing who doesn't do as well against it.   

I would have to say this. . . even though I respect the players of today. . . I would say if the greats of old played today with today's knowledge and skill sets, they could and would win the day because I feel they were a bit more well rounded and there was more of them. There are some superstars of today that could give anyone from any generation a run for their money.

And thats my two cents on this matter!

[KingScorpion]

Jeff, thank god you've got these moods to write because i thought of an idea. Taking this perspective of Old School vs New School can be debated for the longest time and frankly i don't care. Although, i thought how about we incorporate this perspective into just inside JOG and foresee which side is better.

[{GOR}Master~Tyrlan]

Interesting. 

I've been put into situations often enough where I've had to fight pullers and I have no issue... lol.  I still do just as well with the techniques i use as i would against a pusher or choker.  The only difference is a bit of adaption... meaning not jumping into the air and leaving yourself vulnerable as much. 

Pullers have been considered... unfair mainly because of their ability in numbers.  Because it is nearly impossible to control the number of pullers used, it often is abused to the extent that they camp their own spawn or camp other spawns and pull people out or into spawns as well.  This induces spawnkilling.  As far as ability in numbers goes, it is near impossible to kill any hero if they are all pullers, in an open space, and all well coordinated pullers.  And on top of that, their range is ridiculously long, making it even harder.  The freelancing noob pullers on the other hand... no prob.  Lol.  But then again this isn't about pulling, so enough about that.

To speak of Old School Vs. New School... yes it does depend on how much of the new techniques they are aware of, more than how often they use them.  Because simply knowing how to fight against it is enough to do well without using those tactics.  I usually only use them for speed purposes, whether it be an attack that tests how fast the enemy can react to my assault, an escape route to help me survive an ordeal or simply a faster, or an energy saving way to move around the map.  I don't believe too many of the new players completely rely on these new tactics.  They are just a nice way to increase your options when it comes to these kind of things.  So really the game has become more about how fast you are at reacting and attacking as well as how strategic. 

Perfect block is yet another improvement.  People continue complain about it's use today, but it still gets used.  And no, it isn't something you can't get by no matter what.  The "New school" strategies also have methods of getting around this block through the use of ramps, etc.  In the end it really depends on who screws up first in the standstill fight, and whether the opponent takes the opportunity or is able to take the opportunity when the person screws up or not.  It is more than possible for the heroes to easily win without pullers.  I've seen a great many games where the heroes beat the villains easy even though there are many chokers.  It all depends on who's playing.  So really we don't need pullers.  But do I care? No.  Bring them back to a server if you'd like.  I'll play all the same. 

Who is better? I don't know.  We'll only find out if we try. 

[jogjeff]

I think when it comes to pullers. . . yes I have played pullers in these past few years, however the overall skill of the puller has dropped significantly. I do feel that being that the idea of the puller being cheap, lead to its demise, which lead to the rise of the ramping and such moves. You could never do that in the olden days lol I believe it helped move the game. But I think what would be interesting now and to help move the game forward now, would be to bring back pullers to its former glory. . . not limited with single pull either, and see how the newer tactics adapt to it. I have always believed pulling was apart of the game intended to be a factor. I think by not allowing the puller is the single main reason why vaders became the most dominating force in the game.

As for perfect blocking. . . I don't mind that one bit. I view that as knowing how to block. And yes there are moves that get you around it no problems. I know there were some though back in the day that felt this killed the game. 

[{SOR}Mike]

obviously like u said, players get better and better over time so the new school has much better and smarter players but if the old school players had kept playing they could have been just as good or better. imo the new school had an advantage because they were constantly playing against other good players as the noobs were weeded out. back in the day most clans would stick to their server and own noobs on the other team which was fun but didnt help much to improve your game, except in the area of teamwork which was much better then

[{GOR}Master~Tyrlan]

I'm actually still really good at pulling... lol.  My double pulling Conehead(Ki-Adi) is quite mean... Lol.  Gotta love the pull-combo to kill(plus quick pull after combo)-then kill another guy with combo.  And pull into saberthrow... and pull into backslash... Hahaha.  If we had a room that allowed that but was a bit testy on the camping spawns with pullers and highcamping with pullers I'd be glad to play.  A new challenge is always welcome to me.

[{JOG}Leonardo]

I refer to that character as dick head lol.

[Bradley_Jay]

Which also brings me to talk about Conquest. Back in the old days when I played conquest, most of the player base utilized rocket troops. There weren't a lot of good engineers out there, but the ones who did play as an engineer knew how to use the shotgun extremely well. Before I joined JOG 3 years ago, I was apart of the clan Shotgun Confederacy (.:SC:.). The guy who used to lead that clan was called Monoxide, and he and I would play as engineers together practically everyday. After spending awhile playing with him it became easier to read other players and tactics started to become habits: stay on high ground, keep your healthpacks ready, roll-shoot-roll, etc. I don't want to gloat but I became a damn good engineer playing with those guys and beyond, good enough to help JOG win all but two of it's conquest matches. There were a lot of good guys in that clan and I wish I was still on good terms with them.

However, nowadays most servers have team damage off, and this whole new wave of players came to the surface. There's a big difference between these and the new generation of assault, though: the lack of skill. The player base is still primarily rocket troops, but now you see a lot more engineers. You rarely see them use their shotgun, and more than half the time they're downright terrible with it. They just roll close to you and let a detpack rip. People who use clone troopers have gotten progressively better since my time away from conquest, but at the same time you're having to deal with these guys who've never played in an conquest server with team damage ON in their life.

Assault is much more healthy than conquest is at this point in time, and it saddens me because that's what I truly excelled at.

[{JOG}Leonardo]

If you knew me I'd use my detpack more then my shotgun, but I would mostly throw my detpack and shoot straight afterwards then detonate my detpack since people rolled constantly it was easy to determine where they would roll.

[Bradley_Jay]

I don't believe I've seen you play conquest before, so I wouldn't know.

[Neji]

The concept of old school vs new school is iffy. I personally have little to no trouble with any of the remaining old school players. If I actually put effort into it, it's not that big of a problem. There are a number of new school jedi that could go toe to toe with any old school. I personally could play either, in fact I have a few old school strategies I plan out consistently every match or 1on1. But it also clashes with my new school style, but its a good combo.

As for Vaders being the most powerful, that is true. A good Vader knows how to use his speed, his float, and every aspect of the character. Vader is my best character, so I would know. However, fighting against pullers has never been a big issue for me. I use the same tactics and once I'm within range in them, it's a walk in the park. However if I was fighting a puller like Jeff, using my block would be almost mandatory. Fighting Jeff's puller requires you to close in on him, and take him out of his comfort zone. I don't know how my Vader would do against his puller, but I'm sure it wouldn't be too much of a difference seeing how I don't have trouble with any other pullers.

Perfect block is just an advantage, nothing more. Yes there are some that whore it, but there are some that use it skillfully and to their advantage. Perfect block is very easy to get around and requires little effort. I have no trouble with people that whore it.

When pulling was taken out of just about every server, that was a loss. It provided a new challenge and enviroment that allowed you to use new tactics with fighting off pullers. When your fighting a puller, using the buildings can be a bit tricky seeing how if you drop your block it automatically leaves you open for a pull with their massive range. If pullers were allowed back into every server, I can guarantee you, players who never fought against them would imrpove at startling rates.

Now as for pulling's skill reduced to nothing, I'd say that's fake as hell. Tyrlan has a damn good Mundi, and I think I have a good Aayla/Mundi myself. I haven't really seen anybody else use pullers skillfuly, or even to the extent to us for that matter. I know Jeff has a good Aayla. 8-) But then there's the concept of pull being completely whored, and the already breath-taking rates of choking would go up. Either way it would make the game much more interesting and challenging. I'd personally like to see some people play puller in 1on1 and clan matches, but it never happens. The only time pulling has been allowed in individual play is when me and Jeff sparr. I've never tried my pullers against him so I don't know how it would work out.

The concept of double pull being cheap; wrong. It's just the same as infinate choke, double pushing, or any of that other stuff. Once you get pushed and tumble, your guaranteed dead. However if you get pushed off a building, you have little or no time to jump away before the next push, and most people go crashing on their ass as soon as the second one comes in. It's the same concept of double pulling, no difference. Once your in a choke, there is no way to escape unless they run out of force, accidently drop the choke, or fail to saberchoke/kill you in any way. Anybody that bitches about pulling, your just a weak minded simpleton in my eyes.

That's about all I have to put it.

[{JOG}VIKING]

New School would win! 

[Neji]

I should also add, that when the likes of Zarex came back, who was apparently almost Super's equal (according to some), I shut him out after he had a week to recover. This was after the game evolved several months ahead. And below this is the words of a wise man.

Sinister was talking with me on the Abyss and he wanted me to put this reply for him.



Edited By Deity.

Neji..... dont do this. there are times you are cool, there are times your not, this is one of the later.

weither or not sinister believes all that i truly dont care, this is not deleted b/c of 1 persons opinion. Its deleted b/c he didnt bother to post it himself.

Sinister you got problems with jog thats fine and good, but if you got shit to say you say it dont send some kid over here with a mesage. man up next time.

this going back and forth of this guy said what on this site and yadda yadda yadda.... if you got enough of a opinion to write up over a page on the topic clearly you care about it, dont puss out and send neji to do some shit that makes you both look bad.

this isnt about your opinion, its about the way it was presented, i hope thats clear.

and for w/e its worth, your new skill squad of random diff clan guys of viking, you neji, tyrlan would get beat and be beat very, very decidedly. a 2nd or 3rd rate jog squad would be your team, as would sor afh and prob sdj/oes. Regardless of individual skill you guys arent a team, at all, and the old timers fought with the same team for a year or more.

 That plus you speak of a puller?!!? honestly youd get your ass handed to you, and its not debatable. I haven't seen anyone in far too long that knows how to deal with good pullers. a good puller you dont even see, and nullifies all the cheap ass choke moves that exist today. you forget, pulling was done away with by the clans you derived from/originated from b/c they couldn't keep up and had to play with separate rules.

Your welcome to debate this all day with me, they are just opinions, but if your interested it need be you and not some third party with a note.

[{GOR}Master~Tyrlan]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Hahahahaha...

Nobody has really seen me pull much because none of the rooms allow it.  Once a room is up that allows it to all extents, I'll give it a try, and you'll see. 

Once again, we cannot know who wins what until it's tested.  Which isn't going to happen, so I'd rather not talk about it if it isn't going to go anywhere.

Which also brings me to talk about Conquest. Back in the old days when I played conquest, most of the player base utilized rocket troops. There weren't a lot of good engineers out there, but the ones who did play as an engineer knew how to use the shotgun extremely well. Before I joined JOG 3 years ago, I was apart of the clan Shotgun Confederacy (.:SC:.). The guy who used to lead that clan was called Monoxide, and he and I would play as engineers together practically everyday. After spending awhile playing with him it became easier to read other players and tactics started to become habits: stay on high ground, keep your healthpacks ready, roll-shoot-roll, etc. I don't want to gloat but I became a damn good engineer playing with those guys and beyond, good enough to help JOG win all but two of it's conquest matches. There were a lot of good guys in that clan and I wish I was still on good terms with them.

However, nowadays most servers have team damage off, and this whole new wave of players came to the surface. There's a big difference between these and the new generation of assault, though: the lack of skill. The player base is still primarily rocket troops, but now you see a lot more engineers. You rarely see them use their shotgun, and more than half the time they're downright terrible with it. They just roll close to you and let a detpack rip. People who use clone troopers have gotten progressively better since my time away from conquest, but at the same time you're having to deal with these guys who've never played in an conquest server with team damage ON in their life.

Assault is much more healthy than conquest is at this point in time, and it saddens me because that's what I truly excelled at.

I get damage increase + award weapons easy with Engineer, Rocket, Storm-trooper-class(i did that yesterday against a team full of rockets and engies who detpacked as you said lol, getting 40 headshots in the process) and Sniper.  I rarely use my detpack personally unless I'm fighting a rocket and the opportunity presents itself to me.  Otherwise, i get head-shots all the time with the shotgun, leading to 1 hit kills. 

I have to agree though, the detpack abuse is really annoying in team-damage off servers.  I don't even understand why they exist, all people do now in those rooms is recon-spawn-kill, suicide mine in someone's face, rocket someone directly in front of them, or detpack right away on top of themselves when someone gets close.  There ARE team-damage on servers still up, I was in one yesterday when i got increase with both storm troop and engineer.  I HATE team damage on... pisses me off endlessly when people can get away with self-detpacking.  I could be a sniper and right in front of them and they won't even bother to shoot me, they'll just toss the detpack at me.  Ridiculous.

[DEITY]

to clarify to tylran, neji etc I am not saying jog would win simply b/c they are jog, i think its more b/c of the continuity of the clan and team.

along time ago before  i was in jog i beat several, and sound victories, over teams prob more individual skilled than our afh squad, but as a team we were much better, teamwork is the trump card.

so if there was a gor team that played together for along time i would favor them, if it was vvv that stuck around and jog that brokeup/came back every month i would favor vvv, its about consistensy and continuity, great players have existed in every clan, they come and go and its about the clan can move on, or even thrive without them.

jog could survive without me, isac, prob even jeff for a good while, same with gor and jif or tylran.... i dont think the same is for vvv you remove sinister/neji/1 of their key cogs and they fall again like a house of cards.