Old School vs New School

[{GOR}Master~Tyrlan]

I see.

[{JOG}VIKING]

If Sinister is banned from this site, he has no anything for this site. If your banned, your banned. You can try and get a successful or unsuccessful appeal. But until your unbanned, you have nothing for this site. You can't just ask people to message in what you want to type. You are banned. FINAL! Nothing else to it.

That is why Deity deleted your post Neji. So it was all pointless flaming.

Back to the real topic though, New School would win because they have me! 

[{JOG}VIKING]

And Neji, please stop giving Sinister what we write in this topic because this topic is only for people who can see it (i.e. not banned people). Thank you! 

[{GOR}Master~Tyrlan]

Rofl viking.   

[Syn]

[Thirteen{DD}131]

Ugh... honestly this is just sad.  There is no reason to be so worked up over a simple post.  I think it's time to get back on topic.  If that can't be done then I suggest someone just locks this since it's obvious where this is going. 

On the pulling subject I agree it would be a nice change and coming from me that means something.  Im extremly predijudce against pullers because of the DSA server days.   Like Tyrlan said if everyone is a puller then its an impossible task to kill a hero.  So, heres something you could try to limit them.  You know how in conquest there can only be four jet troopers on the feild?  If there is a mod so you can make so there can only be like two aayla's and two Mundi's then that would fix that issue.  ANother thing you could try and I know is possible is making it so pulling classes have a point required thing where you must have X amount of points to use them.  So, instead of a noob just going striaght for the puller he has to use the pusher first and earn the class.  A nice thing this would do is make people use different classes instead of just using luke and Aayla.

[{JOG}VIKING]

I'm going with that the new flame is an automatic delete regardless of who said it.

[{JOG}Leonardo]

Back to the topic!

[jogjeff]

Just wanted to add. . .

When it comes to pulling. . . I didn't mean to sound like no one knows how to pull these days, there are few that do, but its seldom seen. Its also seldom used cause most clan servers don't allow it. Therefore the progression of the puller really is a lost art form. As for me being a puller, I might know what I am doing with it, but I am not that good with it. There were pullers back in the day that made me look like an amatuer at it. Those people were like chicali ( who you'd be lucky to get one kill on when he was using it) Clean ( the same), Wooooooo ( his tactics were almost impossible to predict and to beat), Frantic, Bookofthel78, Deity, Jbizzle, Ino. . . etc etc etc

I Know Neji knows how to use a puller, but to use that in context, when we played against dsx ( when Neji wa sin JOG) and we played with one puller, and devil and meph were on the other team, we won by 50. Devil and meph are seriously good players and we won handily. Could you imagine if they were playing a puller that plays it more often?

But with that said, there are some solid, great players these days, like sinister, neji, fearless, devil, kratos, lak, Viking, Rabbit, infamous, Jub Jub, Tyrlan, Meph etc. . . and some great teams that could form from this, and have formed. . .

But I would still throw my hat in with those that played the game in the olden days if they were given the tools that all have been able to learn and given desire to do so.


This isn't meant to be a who would win JOG vs the best of today. . . because there were so many great players outside of JOG back in the day that you would have to put on an old school team. . . so one would combine players such as chicali, Clean, Myself, Frantic, Rand Talor, Barney, Sentinel, Red Venom, Mastaisac, Deity, Leonardo, Super Duper, Fear, Zarex, Jada, Superman, Trelum, Crazyfoo, Shredder, Dizzerz, Mendez, Ino, Alex, Skylink, Woooooooo, Zombiethirteen, Washington, Hattori Bookofthel, Jbizzle. . . . etc etc etc

I feel in the end there were more great player back in the day cause obviously there were more players. But for their time, they knew everything there was to know. The players that play today, learn much from them, then took the next steps. If you were to get some of those old greats to continue on playing, wo knows what more we could know in this game. . .

Obviously who would win in a battle between old school and new school players is subjective by personal experience. I have played  this game along time and this is what I think. But as I said, when it comes to knowledge of the game obviously players that play now, know more. . . I know more now, more than I knew back in the day, thats for sure.

Anyways, no more going after each other on this thread, cause what it is meant to do is to show case opinions, thats all. We don't need attacks cause that is not what this is meant to do. Now if sinister does have an opinion on this topic, Neji, if you want to post it then do so. he is not going to be unbanned but his thoguths are welcome on this matter cause he is a key member to the community. I will  allow as long as he stays away from attacking JOG on a personal level, being that that is not what this topic is for.

And JOG members please do the same towards him.

I don't want to lock the topic. . . please don't make it come to that.

[{JOG}VIKING]

Neji is banned. Jeff, unban him if you want. But if any flame is from sinister, its a deleted post.

[jogjeff]

ah. . . if an elder felt he needed to be banned for awhile, then thats fine. It cools things down for a bit. Its smart. However I did lift neji's ban so he could see what was written. And in this case if he wants to relate a sinister message, I think we shoudl allow it. Its relevant, as long as it doesn't go after JOG, cause that is not what this topic is about. If it does, then it will be deleted.

[jogjeff]

Actually I found what sinistes wrote. . . I am posting it because I wanted to comment on it, because I feel its relevant. .. .
anyways his post. . . I will reply in the next post because this is rather a legnthy post.
Sinister:

Jeff made a topic regarding Old School vs New School on the JOG site. My name is mentioned in the topic time and time again, and considering what I know and just who I am... I wanted to post. However, I am banned from the JOG site for expressing my opinions and beliefs. I was attacked and I defended myself which in their eyes was justification for a ban (this happened quite a while back). Anyway, seeing as how I was banned from the JOG site some time ago and was unsuccessful in registering today... I had Neji make a post for me regarding the Old School/New School topic for me. This is what it said...

***Jeff, you say that old school vs new school is merely a matter of opinion. I disagree and here is why.

Fact: Frantic, Trelum and Clean all came back to the game and played for quite some time. No disrespect, but at best they were alright kind of players, sometimes solid... but I was never ever impressed and neither were a lot of other people. Trelum himself said that I was the best player he had ever played with... this was something he had a hard time admitting due to pride issues, but eventually once we got on good terms he said it out of respect before he quit the game again.

Clean is the sole reason LSJ lost to FOG. His performance in that match was simply horrible.

Frantic's strongest point was his Anakin, and even then it was sub-par.

Ask anyone else from the time that played with these people. Ask the old members of FOG about Trelum and ask LSJ about Clean and Frantic. They will say similar things I'm sure. Now, you could say maybe these guys lost their desire or fire, but I don't think that's the case. I don't really care anymore and I still play at a high level, as do you Jeff... as does Isac. So the only other explanation is that they aren't as great as they were made out to be, at least in comparison to the new school. Again, I mean no disrespect...

There are some other facts, but I will neglect to mention them... I don't intend on starting a flame-war and I'm sure that's what will ensue if I say those things. I don't think they're necessary anyway when you take a look at the already blatantly obvious facts that lie before you. The only great players that were mentioned, who played both "eras", that have maintained their skill level and adapted to the new gameplay are yourself (Jeff) and Superduper. Leonardo I don't really consider old school because he didn't get good till after LOE which is around the time I got good (I think). Isac and Deity are more solid players than great. I played with Chicali numerous times a long time ago and the only thing I ever saw him do was double/triple pull spawn-kill with Aayla...

You admit that the skillsets of today are much better than the past then go on to compare it to building a house. I think a better example is human beings over time. Point being, we have evolved. Not only have we innovated on the things that were founded years ago, but have also invented many many more. You say old school has more variety, I say new school is more diverse. We have more at our disposal. Show me 3 old school players like Neji, Tyrlan and myself that can go into any server and get damage increase, compete with us both individually and in groups, use the plethora of characters that we can and know all the secrets we know. There is nobody.

Pit me, Neji, Tyrlan, Kratos, Devil, Mephiles and Viking against anybody and we will come out on top (yes I am giving Viking some credit, he has earned it). Old school's best bet of winning any type of match, albeit hypothetical, is to use Jeff, Leonardo (don't really count imo), Super... who else... um, that's it. Maybe FEAR. It doesn't matter, anybody you use doesn't matter. The only way you would even stand a chance is if pulling was allowed and even then I doubt it would be enough because all 7 of those new school players I mentioned know how to fight with and against pullers.

This debate was over when you admitted the skill-sets of today are better than yesteryear. What decides who wins a battle is which team is better, nothing more... nothing less. Variety or knowledge or whatever doesn't have any weight when you consider all of the new school's (greatest) players can use any character or any style of play to accomplish what the situation calls for. We are just as varied and well rounded as you, if not more. We just don't show it often because it's not usually necessary...

It is my belief the new school would win this fantasy battle with ease. Your greatest players came back to the game... there was nothing great about them. You say the old school has more people to use... I don't see it. I am strictly speaking great players, not solid or good, and as far as great goes, we have this in the bag...

I will end this segment with a quote from SOR Mike. Someone who has played in both heydays, someone who has no bias...

"As a person who has been on this game for the long haul i can say without a doubt that the level of play is waaaaayyyy higher today than it was even a year ago. The best now are exponentially better than the best of the old school."

As for perfect block and pull...

My beef with perfect block is that it can make almost any ok player that much better. The problem a lot of players have with it, me being one of them, is that it gets abused... it gets used as a form of compensation for the lesser skilled people, just like the lesser skilled people compensate by specifically scrap-fighting/headhunting to garner kills. This is something I have come to accept... but I do not like it. Then again I guess using something as compensation for a particular situation is a legit tactic... but as I said it makes ok players better and as a result, has dumbed down the game. Example: People rather perfect block an aerial than backslash. <- This is pure laziness and it is exactly what the perfect block promotes and encourages.

Pull I have no problem with. I have tried to get this accepted by the majority of the community numerous times only to fail each and every time. It is allowed in the vVv server, although it is hardly used. I will say that I do agree with Tyrlan here. Pulling induces spawn-killing/camping very very easily. You know why? It's the range. The only (usual) time pullers become a problem, as Tyrlan said, is when there are a lot of them. God knows how fun it is to be tossed around and around, pull by pull until someone finally kills you or you get away... or how awesome it is to waltz out of the cantina without a care in the world only to be double pulled to the courtyard and Aayla raped.

Like I said though, I have no problem with them. I adjust and adapt accordingly. I make them waste all their force then get in their face. Pullers don't know what to do when you are right up against them, this is where they are weakest because you take their range advantage from them. But the reason it is blacklisted among many nowadays, in my opinion at least, is because when compared to choke and push it is much cheaper. There is little effort involved in playing as a puller. You're not required to be close to your opposition, or to keep prying at them till they put their block down. All you need is a spot where you can see enemies. And just the opposite, there is usually a lot of effort involved into actually killing a puller, at least a good one. You are almost required to make yourself vulnerable to do so.

It is much easier to obtain kills with pull than it is with choke or push and once again, this is due mostly in part to the range and ultimately this is why it is banned. However, as I think Jeff said it is a part of the game and helps to balance and level the playing field. It gives everyone something else to master using and to master fighting against... regardless of its cheap qualities. I can live without it... but I do wish it would come back. It would give heroes a chance to do something other than ramp, run and scrap all day. I highly doubt it tho...***

The above message was immediately deleted and edited by Deity. His reasons for doing so, apparently are because I should be man enough to post it myself. Well... I think posting a message myself on the JOG site poses a problem when I'm banned. Let's not forget why I was banned in the first place; I made a post that didn't agree with their opinions. Brilliant logic on his part.

Here is what Deity's next message said (the one that replaced mine):

[{JOG}Off!]

next one posting more then 5 lines without sending me cookies is in trouble.

[jogjeff]

ok. . . btw the reaosn why I am posting to this, was because I did make mention to sinister in my first statement, therefore its only fair. Normally, yes, we don't allow banned players opinions on our site.

With that said. . .

I will break down sinisters remarks
"***Jeff, you say that old school vs new school is merely a matter of opinion. I disagree and here is why.

Fact: Frantic, Trelum and Clean all came back to the game and played for quite some time. No disrespect, but at best they were alright kind of players, sometimes solid... but I was never ever impressed and neither were a lot of other people. Trelum himself said that I was the best player he had ever played with... this was something he had a hard time admitting due to pride issues, but eventually once we got on good terms he said it out of respect before he quit the game again.

For Trelum: He was one of the old schoolers best players to play the game. He wasn't the absolute best, but one of them. He said you sinister were the best he had played against. Thats good. . . for you. Many consider you to be the best of this generations game. You don't get that high of reguard with out being good. Therefore, of course trelum is going to state that about you. I too would state that you are one of the very best in the game's history. But that doesn't mean everyone else is from this time period. If trelum continued to play like he once did, with the desire ( cause yes desire makes the difference) he would be a beast today!

For Clean: WHen perfect blocking came out ( during the summer of 2007) Clean fully stated to myself and fewllow JOG members that he was pretty much done with the game. You have to remember he had pretty much dominated the game for a good year and half already and all clans that were out there were defeated. He left around that very same time, went to some different clans, actaully played more conquest than assault, but then became an elder of lsj. To my knowledge, he did not play much with lsj, something that lak complained to me about. When he came back to JOG, he rarely played assault then. He does not play any longer. With that said, apparently, LSJ blames that lose on clean. I highly doubt it was purely because of him. But even if he did have a hand in its lost there, look at what was asked of him to do. The desire for him to dominate had already gone a year half prior to that lose. . . plus he hadn't sat there and practice with those lsjer's. Something that is always needed. For lsj players too, cause if you have a guy that is not in sync he and the team are going to be off. . .

For Frantic: He never made any comeback, he played a bit a couple years ago when clean came back. I remember that time and I remember lsj said that they were impressed by his vader skills. And he hadn't been just practicing at all prior to that. Thats something coming from possibly the best clan of that time at assault.

Now with that said you stating that these players never impressed you when you played against them, I am assuming this was during their prime, when they played all the time, and they had the desire to beat everyone that came into their path. . . then thats just bravado coming from you, cause you couldn't beat them then, and for you to state this after the fact when they were done that they weren't that impressive. . .thats a rather weak statement. If you state this by playing them outside of their prime. . . which these guys did play from time to time, then again its a weak statement because you are getting them at a time in which their desire isn't the same, nor is their skill level.

I played rand talor a month ago and he wasn't the same player he w=once was. Obviously I was better, but he hadn't played everyday or been subject to all the new moves.

Skill and desire come hand in hand. . . I still have desire to play the game, therefore my skill level continues to grow. However even with that said, when I first played this game I played it like 6 to 8 hours a day cause I loved it that much. These guys did as well. Now it would amaze even me if I play more than a couple maps. I can't even keep focus for that long any longer. Something tells me either can some of our greats today.

As Chicali: The guy is the best player I have ever played with. From me, thats saying something. You may not agree. . . but I spent alot of time with him. If your opinion differs , then so be it. . . but on that one I really don't hold it in high reguard.


Continuing on: From Sinister
You admit that the skillsets of today are much better than the past then go on to compare it to building a house. I think a better example is human beings over time. Point being, we have evolved. Not only have we innovated on the things that were founded years ago, but have also invented many many more. You say old school has more variety, I say new school is more diverse. We have more at our disposal. Show me 3 old school players like Neji, Tyrlan and myself that can go into any server and get damage increase, compete with us both individually and in groups, use the plethora of characters that we can and know all the secrets we know. There is nobody.

Well obviously we are in agreement that new school players have learn from the past and advanced it. As is the normal course of evolution. Even back in the day their were advancements. AS for diverse characters. . . like you neji and trylan, I completely disagree. Obviously you don't agree, but players such as chicali, clean, frantic, trelum, crazy, even super could play m,ultiple players, and be just as deadly. You may not remember this, but I do. . . they were devestating across the board. Now outside of a select group of players in the next gen, skill falls off a bit after you get rid of their abilty to choke. That was not the case from old school players.

The great players from today can do just about anything, as did the old school players. The good to great players from today however drop off in skill after you take away choke. That was not so much the case in the olden days.

Now once again I agree the skill sets are better now.

So the arguement really comes to, when watching players play now and then, then it comes to opinion. And that in the end is what we have here. I have played from the beginning of this game. There are great players from every generation. Hands down. BUt from what I have seen, when you make everything equal. . . I give my hats off towards the older school players cause I feel they had a bit more to them. I am not saying however that you or Neji clouldn't beat them, but overall I think old school players would win the day in a large scale battle. Not to mention, but outside of a few players in sdj, 1 vs 1 records were not that important to many of us. JOG, who was consider the best clan of their time, rarely did them. From about 2008 on, 1 vs 1 records became more and more important because there wasn't alot of clans to battel against, in my opinion. Plus many of you come from the sdj train of thought, therefore, personaly glory would be handed down as a right of passage.

Next from Sinister:
Pit me, Neji, Tyrlan, Kratos, Devil, Mephiles and Viking against anybody and we will come out on top (yes I am giving Viking some credit, he has earned it). Old school's best bet of winning any type of match, albeit hypothetical, is to use Jeff, Leonardo (don't really count imo), Super... who else... um, that's it. Maybe FEAR. It doesn't matter, anybody you use doesn't matter. The only way you would even stand a chance is if pulling was allowed and even then I doubt it would be enough because all 7 of those new school players I mentioned know how to fight with and against pullers.

If you were to make everything equal. . . and you pitted the following " me, Neji, Tyrlan, Kratos, Devil, Mephiles and Viking " who are all amazing players against the following: this would be rough draft of an old school lineup, of lets say myself, Chicali, Clean, Frantic, Super, Trelum and Crazyfoo. . . trust me when I say we would hold our own in the battle. 

But in the end its all theoritcal. . . and its open to debate, which I guess is why this topic is here. However in the end, no one can win it, because its all opinion afterall.

Now to end it:
This debate was over when you admitted the skill-sets of today are better than yesteryear. What decides who wins a battle is which team is better, nothing more... nothing less. Variety or knowledge or whatever doesn't have any weight when you consider all of the new school's (greatest) players can use any character or any style of play to accomplish what the situation calls for. We are just as varied and well rounded as you, if not more. We just don't show it often because it's not usually necessary...

It is my belief the new school would win this fantasy battle with ease. Your greatest players came back to the game... there was nothing great about them. You say the old school has more people to use... I don't see it. I am strictly speaking great players, not solid or good, and as far as great goes, we have this in the bag...

I will end this segment with a quote from SOR Mike. Someone who has played in both heydays, someone who has no bias...

"As a person who has been on this game for the long haul i can say without a doubt that the level of play is waaaaayyyy higher today than it was even a year ago. The best now are exponentially better than the best of the old school."


You state the debate because we agree that skill sets of today are greater than yesturdays. . . well of course, but that doesn't end the arguement. And this is why, look at me for example. I wasn't the best of the old schoolers. I was one of them. . . I didn't play as pullers or chokers, I pretty much have always played with obi wan and maul. There were others of my time that were better, that could play different characters. . . yet even now, I would still be considered one of the bets of todays generation. Even Neji admits that. . . So what do you think these others players would have done. And even still as I stated, even my desire to completely dominate is a not what it once was. Do I always try . . . yes. . . but I don't play this game like I once did. There is a difference.

as for mike's statement. . . of course players skills are exponentially better than they were in the past. . . my skills are much more than they once were. . . so yes this person with no bias is agreeing with us that indeed the moves and skills that are of today are better. . . but it has no baring on who could beat who, because you have to make everything equal and on square footing to make that call.

As for pull and choke I think you and I have always seen pretty much eye to eye on it. . . so I will leave it at that.

So there you have it. . . thats my arguement and opinion on these matters.

Good topic. . .

[JOG_Antifreeze]

Just say this. Sinister is a tool. Hey that was easy?